The F word appears to have lost much of its gravitas, similar to how the term communist is used as a perjorative by the right. Misuse of these words have distorted, and in the case of fascism, diminished the impact they once had.
There are still times when it's appropriate to use the word fascism, but it needs more emphasis and context to set the right tone in many cases.
Read your comment while watching X go crazy over Elon’s fascist salute…. and everyone arguing about whether it was a fascist salute and if he even knew…
I was going to reply that I agree with you and then Elon goes and does a fascist salute so….. think we’re stuck with the word a little longer (on that point, I do think that gesture hits Europeans differently than it would him as a South African but still…..)
InterestingI don't follow Italian media directly, and what I know comes from friends' comments. From this admittedly skewed point of view it seems to me that political opinions are formed as follows: 1. Decide in advance who the good guys and the bad guys are, on the basis of past events (The Americans in Vietnam, the Russians in Esatern Europe) 2. Omit anything specific that requires verification and analysis: an opinion should be on a moral basis. Any mention of non-moral matters weakens a moral opinion. Example: condemn Netanyahu for what he orders the IDF to do in Gaza, but do not criticise him for his sheer partisan incompetence of deploying the IDF more in the West Bank (to protect right-wing settlers) than on the Gaza border (to protect left-wing kibbutzim). Os about Ukraine, never mention the Minsk agreement and why it was not implemented.
Interesting. I'd always understood "fascism" was coined from the Latin "fasces": tools of the trade of a Roman magistrate. There's an interesting looking book here: "The Fasces: A History of Ancient Rome's Most Dangerous Political Symbol" ... which appears to claim that this symbol (of an axe wrapped up in a bundle of sticks) was actually used centuries before Mr Bullethead (Musso).
But in fact the Wikip article on "fascio" also says that the etymology comes directly from the **Italian** word fascio, and that revolutionary Sicilians were the first to use it, in the sense of "strength through numbers", in the 1870s, well before Maledetto Mussaccio.
It’s always frustrating to me that fascio/fasci is actually a hard word to translate. It may well have been used by Sicilians and Mussolini definitely drew inspiration from the Romans (the fascist salute is called the Roman salute in Italian ). But id say he definitely achieved ownership of the word. Fascinating etymology though, thanks for the comment 🙂
Fascism is sometimes confused with racism. I suppose it can overlap. Facism involved state control, but Trump is a person who advocates less state and more capitalism. Or was that not part of the bundle?
Mussolini definitely had the support of big business. But fascism was all about state control, they even had a department called the OND (opera nazionale dopo lavoro, literally National after work department)that would give workers options of what they could do in their spare time. That’s why straight comparisons with modern radical right wing parties don’t always hold.
Barbara, thank you for this. You obviously know more about fascism than I do. But I looked at its definition on several sites. And they all agreed on a few basic principles:
Obsessive loyalty and devotion to one leader.
Nationalism to the point of xenophobia, including race, religion, culture.
Militarism.
Demonization of opposition.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck,…. There’s no question trump is AT LEAST a would-be duck. He clicks ALL the boxes.
Dear Lou, you’re very polite. I’m afraid this Barbara has little or no idea about fascism. Or she is right wing and just try to stir up to confound people.
Just this to this: a friend of mine doesn’t bother if you call her communist or red bolscevic or whatever you want to name a communist. Don’t get me wrong she is aware of the wrongdoing communism has done, but she doesn’t get offence if you name her so. Right wing are afraid and get offence if you name them fascists as they need to avoid to be perceived that way in order to not being emarginate by society.
So you want Barbara, whose grandfather was a mayor under Mussolini and has written extensively about it, to “learn” about fascism, while you claim she knows nothing yet refuse to hear what she has to say. Does that cover it?
"Fascismo (from il fascio, which is hard to translate but means something like the bundle, to give a sense of strength in unity)" : precisamente non IL FASCIO bensì I FASCI, al plurale, a indicare i gruppi aggregati dall'esaltazione per l'intervento dell'Italia nella prima guerra mondiale / i Fasci d'Azione Rivoluzionaria formati tra il 1914 e il 1915 e poi dal 23 marzo 1919 i Fasci italiani di combattimento che rivendicavano l'onore della vittoria negata ... - "the concept of authoritarianism" applicato a se stesso Mussolini lo ha cominciato a elaborare dopo l'ottobre 1922, quando con la marcia su Roma riuscì a mostrare la forza del movimento dei fascisti, e lo ha cominciato a esprimere nel discorso del 3 gennaio 1925 al Parlamento, proclamando: «dichiaro qui, al cospetto di questa Assemblea e al cospetto di tutto il popolo italiano, che io assumo, io solo, la responsabilità politica, morale, storica di tutto quanto è avvenuto [cioè il delitto Matteotti] ... Se tutte le violenze sono state il risultato di un determinato clima storico, politico e morale, ebbene a me la responsabilità di questo, perché questo clima storico, politico e morale io l'ho creato con una propaganda che va dall'intervento ad oggi» - "Is all this talk of the threat of fascism’s return helpful?" ... boh ?!?!? ... certo è che in Italia ora al governo adesso c'è una leader di matrice neo-fascista e l'autoritarismo sta tornando a prevalere ;-)
What a pity. You argue so well to reach the wrong outcome. Your writing is good, but you lack the sharpness to spot the point clearly.
You said fascism is an abused word, you point time is different , people is different.
This is a badly designed try to confound the fact.
Maybe I can offer you a clue of a different-not right just different perspective-.
1 History always repeat itself. Fascism, or authoritarianism are easy to be back in power. You can simply see it, if you are capable to discern the nowadays piece of history.
2 you can substitute fascism with authoritarianism if you prefer, if people simplify the therm is because it’s practical.
3 people is different. Do you really think so? Sure people are better educated, richer, healthier but they are still gullible at same level. Or probably even more.
So, to summarise-and I won’t come back on it anymore: you lacked the central matter: authoritarianism is coming back in many countries Italy and US among others, and probably more evidently.
People warn against this trend calling fascism. Nothing wrong with that.
Libero made its own shitty game by accusing people to see fascism where it is not, falsely, as they are themselves extremists right wing, who need to confound people to avoid to show their black shirts.
And you are doing the same here, instead to denounce the shift from democracy to authoritarian in many governments you blame people who spotted this and speak loudly against it.
So to close we can place a question: what moves you, blindness on the reality or just pure economic interest?
Another fabulous article by Barbara. As ever, informative and a delight to read.
Thank you Colin. That’s kind of you to say and lovely to hear ☺️
The F word appears to have lost much of its gravitas, similar to how the term communist is used as a perjorative by the right. Misuse of these words have distorted, and in the case of fascism, diminished the impact they once had.
There are still times when it's appropriate to use the word fascism, but it needs more emphasis and context to set the right tone in many cases.
Read your comment while watching X go crazy over Elon’s fascist salute…. and everyone arguing about whether it was a fascist salute and if he even knew…
That certainly was something... I think it's more likely a mixture of his akwardness and attention seeking. We're in for 4 interesting years
I would like to see a moratorium on the use of the word fascism in anglophone media. This is a pipe dream, of course.
I was going to reply that I agree with you and then Elon goes and does a fascist salute so….. think we’re stuck with the word a little longer (on that point, I do think that gesture hits Europeans differently than it would him as a South African but still…..)
Good grief.
InterestingI don't follow Italian media directly, and what I know comes from friends' comments. From this admittedly skewed point of view it seems to me that political opinions are formed as follows: 1. Decide in advance who the good guys and the bad guys are, on the basis of past events (The Americans in Vietnam, the Russians in Esatern Europe) 2. Omit anything specific that requires verification and analysis: an opinion should be on a moral basis. Any mention of non-moral matters weakens a moral opinion. Example: condemn Netanyahu for what he orders the IDF to do in Gaza, but do not criticise him for his sheer partisan incompetence of deploying the IDF more in the West Bank (to protect right-wing settlers) than on the Gaza border (to protect left-wing kibbutzim). Os about Ukraine, never mention the Minsk agreement and why it was not implemented.
Unfortunately i think the binary good guys/bad guys narrative is dominating everywhere. Nuance rarely wins friends these days
True. But forming coalitions - effective coalitions - requires nuance.
Couldn’t agree more. That’s why I think there are difficult times ahead. Must say, social media doesn’t help
Interesting. I'd always understood "fascism" was coined from the Latin "fasces": tools of the trade of a Roman magistrate. There's an interesting looking book here: "The Fasces: A History of Ancient Rome's Most Dangerous Political Symbol" ... which appears to claim that this symbol (of an axe wrapped up in a bundle of sticks) was actually used centuries before Mr Bullethead (Musso).
But in fact the Wikip article on "fascio" also says that the etymology comes directly from the **Italian** word fascio, and that revolutionary Sicilians were the first to use it, in the sense of "strength through numbers", in the 1870s, well before Maledetto Mussaccio.
One way to sell newspapers.
It’s always frustrating to me that fascio/fasci is actually a hard word to translate. It may well have been used by Sicilians and Mussolini definitely drew inspiration from the Romans (the fascist salute is called the Roman salute in Italian ). But id say he definitely achieved ownership of the word. Fascinating etymology though, thanks for the comment 🙂
"fascism" was coined from the Latin "fasces" : RIGHT ;-)
"the etymology comes directly from the **Italian** word fascio" ... WRONG
Fascism is sometimes confused with racism. I suppose it can overlap. Facism involved state control, but Trump is a person who advocates less state and more capitalism. Or was that not part of the bundle?
Mussolini definitely had the support of big business. But fascism was all about state control, they even had a department called the OND (opera nazionale dopo lavoro, literally National after work department)that would give workers options of what they could do in their spare time. That’s why straight comparisons with modern radical right wing parties don’t always hold.
Barbara, thank you for this. You obviously know more about fascism than I do. But I looked at its definition on several sites. And they all agreed on a few basic principles:
Obsessive loyalty and devotion to one leader.
Nationalism to the point of xenophobia, including race, religion, culture.
Militarism.
Demonization of opposition.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck,…. There’s no question trump is AT LEAST a would-be duck. He clicks ALL the boxes.
My thoughts exactly!
Dear Lou, you’re very polite. I’m afraid this Barbara has little or no idea about fascism. Or she is right wing and just try to stir up to confound people.
Just this to this: a friend of mine doesn’t bother if you call her communist or red bolscevic or whatever you want to name a communist. Don’t get me wrong she is aware of the wrongdoing communism has done, but she doesn’t get offence if you name her so. Right wing are afraid and get offence if you name them fascists as they need to avoid to be perceived that way in order to not being emarginate by society.
Antonio, I would suggest you look up more info from Barbara, especially videos she’s posted on YouTube.
Not really interested. What I read it’s already enough. I use my time very carefully. But thanks for suggesting
So you want Barbara, whose grandfather was a mayor under Mussolini and has written extensively about it, to “learn” about fascism, while you claim she knows nothing yet refuse to hear what she has to say. Does that cover it?
"Fascismo (from il fascio, which is hard to translate but means something like the bundle, to give a sense of strength in unity)" : precisamente non IL FASCIO bensì I FASCI, al plurale, a indicare i gruppi aggregati dall'esaltazione per l'intervento dell'Italia nella prima guerra mondiale / i Fasci d'Azione Rivoluzionaria formati tra il 1914 e il 1915 e poi dal 23 marzo 1919 i Fasci italiani di combattimento che rivendicavano l'onore della vittoria negata ... - "the concept of authoritarianism" applicato a se stesso Mussolini lo ha cominciato a elaborare dopo l'ottobre 1922, quando con la marcia su Roma riuscì a mostrare la forza del movimento dei fascisti, e lo ha cominciato a esprimere nel discorso del 3 gennaio 1925 al Parlamento, proclamando: «dichiaro qui, al cospetto di questa Assemblea e al cospetto di tutto il popolo italiano, che io assumo, io solo, la responsabilità politica, morale, storica di tutto quanto è avvenuto [cioè il delitto Matteotti] ... Se tutte le violenze sono state il risultato di un determinato clima storico, politico e morale, ebbene a me la responsabilità di questo, perché questo clima storico, politico e morale io l'ho creato con una propaganda che va dall'intervento ad oggi» - "Is all this talk of the threat of fascism’s return helpful?" ... boh ?!?!? ... certo è che in Italia ora al governo adesso c'è una leader di matrice neo-fascista e l'autoritarismo sta tornando a prevalere ;-)
What a pity. You argue so well to reach the wrong outcome. Your writing is good, but you lack the sharpness to spot the point clearly.
You said fascism is an abused word, you point time is different , people is different.
This is a badly designed try to confound the fact.
Maybe I can offer you a clue of a different-not right just different perspective-.
1 History always repeat itself. Fascism, or authoritarianism are easy to be back in power. You can simply see it, if you are capable to discern the nowadays piece of history.
2 you can substitute fascism with authoritarianism if you prefer, if people simplify the therm is because it’s practical.
3 people is different. Do you really think so? Sure people are better educated, richer, healthier but they are still gullible at same level. Or probably even more.
So, to summarise-and I won’t come back on it anymore: you lacked the central matter: authoritarianism is coming back in many countries Italy and US among others, and probably more evidently.
People warn against this trend calling fascism. Nothing wrong with that.
Libero made its own shitty game by accusing people to see fascism where it is not, falsely, as they are themselves extremists right wing, who need to confound people to avoid to show their black shirts.
And you are doing the same here, instead to denounce the shift from democracy to authoritarian in many governments you blame people who spotted this and speak loudly against it.
So to close we can place a question: what moves you, blindness on the reality or just pure economic interest?
Have a good life