I know someone who does video production, and occasionally video interviews of health sector civil servants, or company directors, as part of corporate presentations, etc.
The other month he had to do one for a director from Northern Ireland. The accent was so thick that both me and my friend were laughing at the video: both of us (both English) were struggling to understand.
It was meant for presentation to Kuwaitis, or something like that. My friend's solution was ingenious, and completely necessary: in the end he arranged to have these "bubbles" with written "key expressions" floating up from the interviewee's mouth as he spoke, in the video, e.g. "we are customer-focused", all that corporate nonsense-speak.
It **looked** like this was being done because these excerpts were particularly "significant". But the reality is that without these bubbles, for 99% of Kuwaitis the whole video would have been completely unintelligible from start to finish.
What's mildy staggering in this case here is the ineptitude of the Hertfordshire "University" HR person who tried to cancel Elaine's hiring, and explicitly said this was the reason. If you don't like the accent, smell, political opinions, irritating laugh, etc. of someone during a probationary period, the simple rule is: find a pretext which will NOT land you in an industrial tribunal. Or, if you can get away with it, say nothing at all.
What's interesting about your story is that the video was aimed at Kuwaitis who, I would assume, are second-language English. In news, there's often this assumption that you can put the 'foreign-sounding folk' on international channels. But the irony is that second language English speakers need you to be EVEN CLEARER and they often need to be anchored to one of the 'privileged' accents (south-east England English, East Coast American mainly). I found it at Al Jazeera. My dear, departed father (who spoke good English, but very much businessman English that he learnt as an adult) said he loved al jazeera but that he found all the different voices harder to understand than Sky News. It's awkward but it's true. Btw your friend is a genius for the Bubbles idea!
I wondered whether comparable situations to the one I talked about might exist in Italy, where the whole country was a kaleidoscope of languages not so long ago.
Naturally enough I looked up Sardu. At Wikip it says this "To most Italians Sardu/Sardinian is unintelligible, reminding them of Spanish, because of the way in which the language is acoustically articulated; characterised as it is by a sharply outlined physiognomy which is displayed from the earliest sources available" ...
"sharply outlined physiognomy"! What could that mean I wonder? Again according to Wikip, it says among other things that it incorporates "Paleo-Sardinian" and "some Punic", Byzantine Greek, Catalan, etc. Fascinating. Can you speak Sardu? Or would you need speech bubbles?
Accent discrimination exists but it’s not often talked about (except in this newsletter, of course! Go Barbara!) it’s good to see a tribunal drawing a line in terms of what’s an acceptable dismissal. Also, if her accent was really that hard to understand, they could have suggested some diction lesson over firing her. It sounds like it was a (terrible) excuse to dismiss her.
I did ask Elaine whether they offered any help or if they'd even identified exactly what the problem with her accent was, and she said no. In fairness to them, they probably didn't know, but it did create an unfortunate situation. Thank you for comment on newsletter!
Thank you, Barbara, for sharing Elaine's story. The real problem, it seems to me, is the person who made the hiring decision. Let's start from the simple premise that Elaine was interviewed. The purpose of a job interview is to establish whether a candidate you're interviewing is a good fit. Elaine didn't hide her accent at the interview. Whoever interviewed her heard her accent. Why was she hired in the first place if her accent wasn't good for her role? Why/how did her accent become a problem after she had been hired?
You say that "the silver lining is that finally the issue of accents [...] is being discussed more openly"—but I don't think this will address the problem of accent discrimination. Employers now know that they will be inviting legal action if they fault a job seeker's accent. Accent discrimination is going to look like age discrimination. When you're rejected on the grounds of your age, nobody says a thing about it. They are trying to avoid legal action.
Finally, did you ask Elaine if she managed to find another job? Is her strong accent still affecting her employment prospects?
Good point that accent discrimination could end up like ageism - so hard to prove. I'm going to try to stay positive and hope the wider, honest conversation about it leads to more inclusion. I'll put your question to Elaine when we catch up in the new year about her new tribunal.
While I was living in the UK my Australian sister in law and some of her family were visiting. Her brother in law could barely understand me. I realised this when he was looking at me with a very puzzled expression. I am now back living in Australia and recently had to ask a doctor wearing a
a mask to slow down and repeat herself as their Australian accent was so strong and different to the accent I had grown up with in Australia, and so different to my South East of England accent. I am still struggling to adapt my ear to some Australian accents and there are people who struggle to understand me.
I'm usually fairly good at understanding accents, partly through being bilingual but also because I'm a musician, implying I have a good ear. However, not everyone does and I've come across accents I found difficult or impossible to understand. The thing is, I think that's my fault, not the speaker's, and I make that clear when I ask them to repeat themselves or speak more slowly. If it's used as an excuse, then yes, it's racist, but if it's genuine then it's just a fact.
Really interesting point about the overlap between musicality and having an ear for accents/speech. People get obsessed with pronunciation, but it's so often about intonation, rhythm and speed, much more like music actually.
This is exactly what my English (native speaker) language told us! (just me, actually).
[I adore music, so this could be (a lot) easier for me; for that matter, to say more, everyone says I am very good at singing, playing music (rhythm) … etc., etc.]
But this talent —for understanding accents— we are talking about is just (even more) discriminating! Because of the (simple) fact that we cannot expect or demand that everyone has this gift. And this worsens (even more) inclusion, that's what we are talking about, in the end.
(Sorry for possible mistakes, I am not a native speaker, just trying every day to improve)
After 30 years living in the UK I still have my South African English accent. I live in North Wales and have difficulty understanding the various accents I hear. Many people I come into contact with have trouble understanding me and as a result I avoid conversations. I would never imagine accents to fall into the racism trap.
I hear you Robert. I've been here 31 years and there's no losing the twang! In London I think everyone has gotten used to different accents, but I notice that when I travel out of the Capital, the way I speak has more of an impact.
In South Africa, accent IS connected to race and economic class. That is a fact. Accents don't change much per region or town (unlike the UK), but they do for the different racial groups & LSM's. That's because for over 300 years, races were separated by colonialism then Apartheid. A middle-class white person from Durban can easily understand a middle- class white person from Cape Town for example, but when it comes to other racial groups where the person is speaking English, the accent can be very different. In my view if my employer was to employ a person & then complain about the accent it could conceivably be regarded as unfair discrimination, if not racism. To be fair I can understand the HR person at the University didn't see her accent as an issue, but then later her colleagues found it difficult. However, I cannot see how it can be an indication of incompetence or lack of capacity. HR was probably hung out to dry by management.
Thanks for sharing the accent situation in South Africa, fascinating but not surprising. Accents are so much part of who we are and a reflection of our environment. As for Elaine's tribunal, I'll definitely revisit this story once she has the new tribunal.
Barbara, this is the second time I’ve read this. I always appreciate your point of view.
I live in a small city in Michigan. I *rarely* hear a foreign accent in my locale, so I’m not used to it. In general, the only ones I hear are when I dial a call center for help. In the States, it seems most of those are in India, the Philippines, or somewhere else in Asia. Pretty often, those conversations are quite frustrating for me because I barely understand who’s on the other end of the call. I’ve asked to speak to a supervisor, only because I hope I can understand them better. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t. I’m SURE it’s just as frustrating for the people in the call centers.
If an employer wants to get rid of you, they’ll come up with a reason. I personally don’t find Elaine’s accent difficult to understand, and it sounds (get it?) to me like a pretty flimsy excuse for letting her go.
I am Italian and speak English with a noticeable accent. I also know some French and a little Spanish.
For three years, I worked for an international organization, which exposed me to a variety of English accents and taught me just how different English can sound. After a year, I became quite good at understanding Indian, Japanese, and many African accents. Thanks to my knowledge of French, I found it easier than my colleagues from Eastern Europe to understand francophones speaking English. Ironically, the accents I still find the hardest to understand are Australian, New Zealand, and Irish.
Despite the inherent difficulty of understanding English spoken with a strong foreign accent, I’ve noticed that a big part of the struggle is rooted in the mindset and cultural attitude of the listener. Italians, for example, are accustomed to hearing our language mispronounced. We know our grammar and pronunciation can be challenging, so we tend to appreciate it when someone tries to speak our language. We’re usually patient, helping them improve their pronunciation and making an effort to understand what they’re trying to say.
French people, on the other hand, often don’t seem as willing to adapt. For instance, when I spoke French in Paris, they frequently replied to me in English instead. This created a barrier that made me feel uncomfortable and less motivated to practice my French with locals.
For native English speakers, I imagine it’s even harder to adapt. English is often regarded as a global lingua franca, so native speakers are used to being understood rather than having to adjust their listening habits. As a result, many struggle to understand English spoken with a foreign accent—not because their ears or brains can’t process the words, but because their mindset isn’t open or accustomed to making that kind of effort.
I know someone who does video production, and occasionally video interviews of health sector civil servants, or company directors, as part of corporate presentations, etc.
The other month he had to do one for a director from Northern Ireland. The accent was so thick that both me and my friend were laughing at the video: both of us (both English) were struggling to understand.
It was meant for presentation to Kuwaitis, or something like that. My friend's solution was ingenious, and completely necessary: in the end he arranged to have these "bubbles" with written "key expressions" floating up from the interviewee's mouth as he spoke, in the video, e.g. "we are customer-focused", all that corporate nonsense-speak.
It **looked** like this was being done because these excerpts were particularly "significant". But the reality is that without these bubbles, for 99% of Kuwaitis the whole video would have been completely unintelligible from start to finish.
What's mildy staggering in this case here is the ineptitude of the Hertfordshire "University" HR person who tried to cancel Elaine's hiring, and explicitly said this was the reason. If you don't like the accent, smell, political opinions, irritating laugh, etc. of someone during a probationary period, the simple rule is: find a pretext which will NOT land you in an industrial tribunal. Or, if you can get away with it, say nothing at all.
What's interesting about your story is that the video was aimed at Kuwaitis who, I would assume, are second-language English. In news, there's often this assumption that you can put the 'foreign-sounding folk' on international channels. But the irony is that second language English speakers need you to be EVEN CLEARER and they often need to be anchored to one of the 'privileged' accents (south-east England English, East Coast American mainly). I found it at Al Jazeera. My dear, departed father (who spoke good English, but very much businessman English that he learnt as an adult) said he loved al jazeera but that he found all the different voices harder to understand than Sky News. It's awkward but it's true. Btw your friend is a genius for the Bubbles idea!
Yes, absolutely (2nd language speakers).
I wondered whether comparable situations to the one I talked about might exist in Italy, where the whole country was a kaleidoscope of languages not so long ago.
Naturally enough I looked up Sardu. At Wikip it says this "To most Italians Sardu/Sardinian is unintelligible, reminding them of Spanish, because of the way in which the language is acoustically articulated; characterised as it is by a sharply outlined physiognomy which is displayed from the earliest sources available" ...
"sharply outlined physiognomy"! What could that mean I wonder? Again according to Wikip, it says among other things that it incorporates "Paleo-Sardinian" and "some Punic", Byzantine Greek, Catalan, etc. Fascinating. Can you speak Sardu? Or would you need speech bubbles?
Accent discrimination exists but it’s not often talked about (except in this newsletter, of course! Go Barbara!) it’s good to see a tribunal drawing a line in terms of what’s an acceptable dismissal. Also, if her accent was really that hard to understand, they could have suggested some diction lesson over firing her. It sounds like it was a (terrible) excuse to dismiss her.
I did ask Elaine whether they offered any help or if they'd even identified exactly what the problem with her accent was, and she said no. In fairness to them, they probably didn't know, but it did create an unfortunate situation. Thank you for comment on newsletter!
Thank you, Barbara, for sharing Elaine's story. The real problem, it seems to me, is the person who made the hiring decision. Let's start from the simple premise that Elaine was interviewed. The purpose of a job interview is to establish whether a candidate you're interviewing is a good fit. Elaine didn't hide her accent at the interview. Whoever interviewed her heard her accent. Why was she hired in the first place if her accent wasn't good for her role? Why/how did her accent become a problem after she had been hired?
You say that "the silver lining is that finally the issue of accents [...] is being discussed more openly"—but I don't think this will address the problem of accent discrimination. Employers now know that they will be inviting legal action if they fault a job seeker's accent. Accent discrimination is going to look like age discrimination. When you're rejected on the grounds of your age, nobody says a thing about it. They are trying to avoid legal action.
Finally, did you ask Elaine if she managed to find another job? Is her strong accent still affecting her employment prospects?
Good point that accent discrimination could end up like ageism - so hard to prove. I'm going to try to stay positive and hope the wider, honest conversation about it leads to more inclusion. I'll put your question to Elaine when we catch up in the new year about her new tribunal.
Thanks, Barbara! Would love to know how she has navigated the employment landscape since she went public about being discriminated against.
While I was living in the UK my Australian sister in law and some of her family were visiting. Her brother in law could barely understand me. I realised this when he was looking at me with a very puzzled expression. I am now back living in Australia and recently had to ask a doctor wearing a
a mask to slow down and repeat herself as their Australian accent was so strong and different to the accent I had grown up with in Australia, and so different to my South East of England accent. I am still struggling to adapt my ear to some Australian accents and there are people who struggle to understand me.
I'm usually fairly good at understanding accents, partly through being bilingual but also because I'm a musician, implying I have a good ear. However, not everyone does and I've come across accents I found difficult or impossible to understand. The thing is, I think that's my fault, not the speaker's, and I make that clear when I ask them to repeat themselves or speak more slowly. If it's used as an excuse, then yes, it's racist, but if it's genuine then it's just a fact.
Really interesting point about the overlap between musicality and having an ear for accents/speech. People get obsessed with pronunciation, but it's so often about intonation, rhythm and speed, much more like music actually.
This is exactly what my English (native speaker) language told us! (just me, actually).
[I adore music, so this could be (a lot) easier for me; for that matter, to say more, everyone says I am very good at singing, playing music (rhythm) … etc., etc.]
But this talent —for understanding accents— we are talking about is just (even more) discriminating! Because of the (simple) fact that we cannot expect or demand that everyone has this gift. And this worsens (even more) inclusion, that's what we are talking about, in the end.
(Sorry for possible mistakes, I am not a native speaker, just trying every day to improve)
After 30 years living in the UK I still have my South African English accent. I live in North Wales and have difficulty understanding the various accents I hear. Many people I come into contact with have trouble understanding me and as a result I avoid conversations. I would never imagine accents to fall into the racism trap.
I hear you Robert. I've been here 31 years and there's no losing the twang! In London I think everyone has gotten used to different accents, but I notice that when I travel out of the Capital, the way I speak has more of an impact.
In South Africa, accent IS connected to race and economic class. That is a fact. Accents don't change much per region or town (unlike the UK), but they do for the different racial groups & LSM's. That's because for over 300 years, races were separated by colonialism then Apartheid. A middle-class white person from Durban can easily understand a middle- class white person from Cape Town for example, but when it comes to other racial groups where the person is speaking English, the accent can be very different. In my view if my employer was to employ a person & then complain about the accent it could conceivably be regarded as unfair discrimination, if not racism. To be fair I can understand the HR person at the University didn't see her accent as an issue, but then later her colleagues found it difficult. However, I cannot see how it can be an indication of incompetence or lack of capacity. HR was probably hung out to dry by management.
Thanks for sharing the accent situation in South Africa, fascinating but not surprising. Accents are so much part of who we are and a reflection of our environment. As for Elaine's tribunal, I'll definitely revisit this story once she has the new tribunal.
Barbara, this is the second time I’ve read this. I always appreciate your point of view.
I live in a small city in Michigan. I *rarely* hear a foreign accent in my locale, so I’m not used to it. In general, the only ones I hear are when I dial a call center for help. In the States, it seems most of those are in India, the Philippines, or somewhere else in Asia. Pretty often, those conversations are quite frustrating for me because I barely understand who’s on the other end of the call. I’ve asked to speak to a supervisor, only because I hope I can understand them better. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t. I’m SURE it’s just as frustrating for the people in the call centers.
If an employer wants to get rid of you, they’ll come up with a reason. I personally don’t find Elaine’s accent difficult to understand, and it sounds (get it?) to me like a pretty flimsy excuse for letting her go.
I am Italian and speak English with a noticeable accent. I also know some French and a little Spanish.
For three years, I worked for an international organization, which exposed me to a variety of English accents and taught me just how different English can sound. After a year, I became quite good at understanding Indian, Japanese, and many African accents. Thanks to my knowledge of French, I found it easier than my colleagues from Eastern Europe to understand francophones speaking English. Ironically, the accents I still find the hardest to understand are Australian, New Zealand, and Irish.
Despite the inherent difficulty of understanding English spoken with a strong foreign accent, I’ve noticed that a big part of the struggle is rooted in the mindset and cultural attitude of the listener. Italians, for example, are accustomed to hearing our language mispronounced. We know our grammar and pronunciation can be challenging, so we tend to appreciate it when someone tries to speak our language. We’re usually patient, helping them improve their pronunciation and making an effort to understand what they’re trying to say.
French people, on the other hand, often don’t seem as willing to adapt. For instance, when I spoke French in Paris, they frequently replied to me in English instead. This created a barrier that made me feel uncomfortable and less motivated to practice my French with locals.
For native English speakers, I imagine it’s even harder to adapt. English is often regarded as a global lingua franca, so native speakers are used to being understood rather than having to adjust their listening habits. As a result, many struggle to understand English spoken with a foreign accent—not because their ears or brains can’t process the words, but because their mindset isn’t open or accustomed to making that kind of effort.